Design Seminar 2

By Kent Millard May 13th, 2009

Looking at narrative, specifically film narrative. Article by Branigan, deconstructing elements of narrative – fascinated with the idea of using narrative for communicating, packaging information in bite-sized chunks. With my interest in education, good model for me to look at for ways to look at how to bring information into the classroom setting and essentially package information, in possibly narrative form, and use that to communicate with students.

I had a couple of questions

-       What is the role of narrative in the design classroom?

-       How can narrative be used to teach students the language of design?

-       Is learning a form of interactive narrative?

Ties in with some interests I’ve had lately – idea of people being able to follow story lines along individual paths and begin to draw their own conclusions. Talks about this at the end of the chapter – double causality. More complex and richer story with several different threads.

 Idea of following individual threads ties in with educational paradigm – there are multiple ways of learning. You might learn by doing, hearing, seeing. There are a number of ways of connecting with people. If you’re sending things out on several different channels, greater chance of connecting with people. Idea of narrative being the communication  mechanism to provide students with information on several different levels, hopefully one or several of them have resonance and they’ll be able to get the information you’re trying to convey.

Jan- Interesting (you touched on this in your introductory remarks) Branigan distinguishes between obvious narrative and not so obvious –fragmentary, dormant text. Therefore, when he goes into the 4 categories. — two big categories narrative, non-narrative. Then narrative-fiction, narrative-non-fiction, non-narrative fiction, non-narrative non-fiction. Thinks brilliant idea to cover a lot more than we used to think of as narrative, and therefore the whole learning would be in it. Think you should start investigating how you understand those categories, applicable to various categories of your research.  It will be different for cinema, different for documentary, different for learning. I found this very, very interesting, putting those categories at the very beginning before any theories are discussed. When we’re discussing a movie we’re discussing structure of a plot, double-plot, lot we can decipher from the medium, and then discuss over the phone, in another medium. In learning, we don’t have the same function here -building a non-narrative that needs to expand or create a sequence of information that you understand as a bigger structure of information.

Is information architecture narrative? Not sure. Beginning, middle and end is your walk-through of information. It’s a bigger structure than that. In the movie, you have to follow that structure. Only other choice is to walk out. In the more complex architecture of information, I see

Trying to creative a dialog – is all learning narrative?

David - Answer one – no! I think it relates to my article. Just as Bruner says there are two very different modes of thought, I think there’s also different modes of learning. When you’re learning calculus, there’s a build up, progression, but not a lot of narrative. Story can provide a mechanism to facilitate learning though. David gave an example of how students learn what a Frunel lens is – if he tells a story of how it was invented, they understand it better because then they can see how. They won’t remember the scientific concepts of the lens, but they’ll always remember the story of how they were invented. Once you hear that story it sticks with you.

Dennis: All learning isn’t narrative, but narrative is a very effective method to teach. Teachers who are good storytellers are often the best teachers. As a student of literature, getting taught narrative isn’t narrative. When you deconstruct the elements it loses it’s narrative quality. Definition of narrative difficult to narrow down. Story or multiple storylines that converge. Difficult to think of teaching in that way.

David: I think it runs deeper than that. It’s a controversial theory, granted, but one of my favorite essays of all time, Knowledge and Memory: The Real Story, by Robert Shank and Robert Abelson. They basically state that everything we learn is structured in our minds as narrative, as stories, this is how we remember stuff. How many people remember stuff they studied in high school algebra if they’ve never used it? More likely to remember the novels you read; perhaps we have hard-wiring for these cause and effect chains that Branigan talks about, at the neurological level.

Jan – it is controversial.

David – Granted, but it’s a very interesting concept to thing about. And part of the challenge of teaching is that people come into the classroom with a whole set of stories they’ve heard before. And if you’re talking about something they are familiar with or agree with, they’ll learn. And if you’re teaching something that runs counter to their experience, you’re going to have a tough time because you have to build a whole new set of stories. Ties into psycho-analysis, lot of psychological theories. People say we have to get over this, because if we only remember stories, we’re doomed on this planet because we keep repeating the same mistakes, because we keep learning the same stories that might be wrong instead of using logic and reason.

Jan – Not just juxtaposing narrative versus logic and reason. Visual language, gestalt, visual composition, they are not narrative structures, but they are structures. Music can be considered narrative, musicians talk about their narrative gestures because they have beginning, middle and end but they are very abstract level. I like this – Branigan doesn’t just say there’s narrative, but he has non-narrative structures, and those non-narrative structures cannot be translated into narrative even if we want to.

 

Kent – He does go on to say there can be elements of narrative in those.

David – But differential equations are very important but you can’t make narrative out of them.

Dennis - Someone sent me a link. Took an Einstein theory which I would never in my life be able to understand, and they translated it into a story, made it so clear what this theory was about. It was fascinating.  Will see if he can dig it up.

Lou - On another note. I was in a math class (I was a math major for one semester) and there was this terrible joke. I walked in and there was an equation on the board that ended in “equals log cabin”. People were walking in laughing and I didn’t get it. Can only remember the punch line and it was horrible. Because it was written in that formal mathematical language, it lost the narrative quality for me. But the mathematicians loved it (those who were going to stick with it).

Dennis - Are you ruling out looking into things like literature because it’s not technically time-based.

Kent – I was keeping it to just time-based.

Dennis - It’s such a rich area, so many wonderful narratives. And a lot of literature was written primarily to teach. The Bible is a classic example – written to teach through narrative.

Jan – Two of your questions here refer to design. So literature is one direction I agree, cinematography is about writing. But design – there are elements of information architecture that moves even further into indexing, databases – things that are even more definitely non-narrative structure. But I think that design itself, visual design – even if you remove timeline from the cinema, narrative or not?: Composition, camera movement, point of view. The language of design you’re talking about. In the language of design, certain aspects will be more compatible with structures of narrative, and others not. I think language of design should also be under your magnifying glass.

David – Where I see a really  strong connection with design: what if I say this “Design is an activity that organizes data to  a special pattern that represents and explains experience”. Would you believe that? {people say yes} Well, Branigan wrote the same thing but he said that narrative is an activity that… at the top of page 3. One of his highlighted and underlined phrases.

Jan – Only because he uses the term “data”. But data is a term that brings it together. He also thinks that quote is fascinating. When we talk about about learning as educators, the term “data” is meaningless. Information can be narrative or non-narrative. But between data and information there is a huge difference. Information is data which occurred to me when I needed it – right time, right place, to attach to my brain to use for a story I want to tell, term I want to explain or to that list I want to produce.

David - Would you say information is data with context, structure and representation?

Jan – Absolutely. And that contextualization is happening differently in different languages – language of motion, gesture, verbal, visual. If I may – on page 3, my favorite part ‘’ the word narrative may refer to either the – of storytelling or comprehending or its process of construction.” That is a very interesting thing too. This is a noun and verb at the same time, like design.

David – There lies the confusion between narrative and narration – narration as the process. How this cause and effect chain is communicated, because that’s where all the magic is. Plot versus story distinction. The connections between design and narrative are really interesting.

Jan – Excellent direction. Difficult and challenging, but excellent.

David – What are the real differences between what goes on in Film, what goes on in SIM and what goes on here? I have academic department autism. I have difficulty seeing the distinctions others see as black and white.

Kent – I see the circles and the convergences of them.

Discussion of the differences between SIM and DMI. Boundaries that have been drawn – tabled discussion, back to narrative.

If you were to say thesis direction – more weighed narrative itself? Teaching and learning.

Kent said teaching and learning primarily, with how narrative would fit into that. Project he’s doing in Joe’s class – feels that’s being informed by a lot of this. Providing students with a tool so they can form their own connection, make meaningful connections between the clips, go out and begin to discover things on their own, create an experience memorable to them. Allow them to take a more active role in the learning process makes it more meaningful for them. That’s the direction he’s moving in. Film is one way of getting there, how to apply some of that into the classroom, roll in other aspects of design as well.

David – One of the challenges of teaching –teaching students how to be a writer, rather than teaching writing. Putting the process in a social context, tied into you personally and your relationship with the world, rather than just mechanical steps decontextualized. Huge difference art schools work versus other programs. Media Lab so different from the rest of the school because it was more about being than making things, more focus on your process, relationship with the environment. Think in that mindset, while you live there, that native land, becoming part of it. Why there’s such a cozy relationship between social sciences and design. Designers naturally go out, interact with the world.

Kent – Contextualizing – where the narrative comes into play. To contextualize information, so it makes sense.

David – One of the functions of narrative in our culture. Like in your project, Making meaning. Learning the distinction between story and narrative.

Kat – In your project for Joe’s class, part of narrative, but unless the student interacts with the platform, not interactive – not talking back to the information itself, not have interaction going on. Could be something that you receive information in, but that you can also send out, actually interact with the student, somehow show how you can take that and make something your own.

Kent – We’ve come to the conclusion there is no narrative per se in the classroom. Not sure how to incorporate case studies, real world examples is one way. Group projects is another. It’s an interactive process regardless, they are getting information from themselves, each other, and instructor and feed off each other.

David – When, as a student you are part of the process of making and building the tool – that’s interesting. When he first arrived at Media Lab, found something really interesting happening – they were building amazing tools. Muriel made everyone contribute to their set of programming tools. Had to work on the collective tool kit. They complained a lot, but they were actually helping to build the tool from which they all drew to go off and build their own things. Important teaching process. Must have come straight out of Seymour Papert – Constructivism, Piaget – you learn best by making. Even the process of reacting against it, going off and making your own is important part of the project.

Jan – Vygotsky also important theories – at the end of these theories, methods for the classroom. Need to delve into the methods, constructivist tricks. I think you have a lot of important theoretical and practical discourse with yourself about narrative structure and design language as structure. You mentioned interactive narrative – this is a very difficult animal. Underlying principle is database. We define data as meaningless without some kind of organizing containers/categories. Eventually, the experience of it needs to be a narrative – our ability to put things on a timeline, understand it.

Kent – Oxymoron interactive narrative?

Jan doesn’t think so – gaming has huge database for experts who can really navigate through it. Example of successful interactive narrative. Special kind of goal-oriented, target-oriented narrative. Much more narrow than interpretation of book or movie. Thinks contradiction you need to see. Don’t have to go to deepest levels of semiotics to solve it. But database, not narrative structure. When you have a tool, maybe based on narrative structure to help you bring the data that you need at the proper moment, that becomes a narrative on your individual level of retrieving information. Database itself nothing but need rules of engagement, maybe those rules can come from patterns of narrative structure. Your reading refers to this, page 18 – patterns, different than gestalt patterns, than rhythmic patterns in music, but those patterns can probably help someone retrieve information in a meaningful way. Wishes we had successful high-level system like in gaming, for retrieving information for learning. We don’t have this because we don’t have enough money for that. Gaming is bigger industry than learning. Yes there is some, it will come in future. Tools to retrieve proper information at the proper time for a learner.

Kent – That’s really what I want to explore. In Joe’s class last semester I explored gaming experience in Wow and Dungeons and Dragons. You’ve adopted a role but you hit a glass ceiling. How you begin to pull in richer experience, how can you go off the script? I’d like to look at that more closely. Not sure how it would fit with this.

Jan – You should see the thesis of Christine Pillsbury. Jan has a personal copy (the other 2 copies disappeared). She did all this ground work. Did a metaphor of a garden for investing in stock market. Narrative or not? Very interesting case studies she came up with.

David – Controversial theorists advocating use of simulators in learning.

Jan – Brings you closer and closer to design.

Kent – What would a design simulator be like?

Jan – Case study – Paul Rand project. Lauren Bessen. She deconstructed one particular poster of Paul Rand (tool would eventually be for more designs). You had limited tools Rand had – could use scale, transparency etc. You realize you can’t improve on what Rand did.

Role-playing is a great way to learn. Law students learn in mock court. Designers solving problems in a way is simulations.

Personas – creating fictious characters, creating scripts.

Dennis – Would read the Scott McCloud book, Understanding Comics, chapter on closure – what happens in the reader’s mind between the panels.

Jan – End of the day, what is happening is happening in individual’s mind. Great educators say they can’t teach anything, can help in various ways, but eventually it is in the learner’s mind, connections become visible.

David - Logic professor – said I’m not here to teach you anything, can just to give you some intellectual hooks to hang your hat on.

Tags: Branigan, Narrative

This entry was posted on Wednesday, May 13th, 2009 at 7:15 am and is filed under Millard, Student Forum, Student-conducted Seminar. You can follow any responses to this entry through the RSS 2.0 feed. You can leave a response, or trackback from your own site.